If I go back in time in the forum there are so many more post on a daily basis throughout the year than how it is now, pretty dead.
What will get more users back ? EDIT: or NEW USERS
Real Time Arranging ??
Band in a Box for linux ??
A Working BBPlugin (EZBBvst) ??
Other ??

"What will get more users back ?"
Here is my recipe:

1) Known bugs fixed
2) VST3 with full mixer channel routing before the end of the year.
3) Workflow enhancements / fix broken workflow items - the core of these issues was presented in great detail in several videos by Jeff P.
4) Throw out redundant features and menus /Clean up UI., not giving in to a vocal "few"... only few (!) that are stalling the progress for most users because they are too comfy using certain menus.
5) Graphical enhancements. More vector, more modular, modern buttons. No eyesore "Radio Bar" by default. Less of 90's vibe in design.
6) Plugin stability + same regeneration multicore speed as BIAB. No render to disc.

5) --> Yes, it could be a good idea. Especially for users with HDPI monitors. Better GUI is always nice to have. But if GUI is old-fashioned and functional I personally don't have any problem. I think there are other priorities, but I understand there are many users with tiny 4K monitors.

1), 2), 3), 4), 6) --> ABSOLUTELY! Every time I fire BiaB I have the same feeling: The software is "almost there" (like N years ago).

I'd add: Simpler software set: Just a VST3 plug-in and a stand-alone version with nearly identical functionality. Like everybody else! No need for Real Tracks or Power Tracks (Many musicians prefer their own DAWs). If all functionality is in the VST3, then there is no need to combine multiple pieces of software, each one with its hidden limitations.

No more need open Real Tracks to export vocal harmonies in separate channels! If you asked, even just a good VST3 plug-in (no stand-alone version) should be enough, but I understand there are users that don't like to fire a VST host for live use.

I think to get a whole new user base would be those that use arranger keyboards, there would have to be a large market for those that want real instruments but don't want to pay $5000 for an arranger keyboard with real instruments.
Real Time Arranging

A decent laptop or something like this could be used in a live situation, look how small these are:
HP ELITEDESK 800 G2 mini i5 6500T 8GB RAM 256GB SSD Win 10 Micro PC WIFI
I got one as a spare PC for $100.

My take, and apologies if this is derailing.

BIAB could easily be adapted to perform as an Arranger keyboard system, using a fast processor, adequate RAM and a decent SSD.
However...
Some of the currently advertised System Requirements preclude this from ever being delivered:
I don't know anyone running Windows 7 (no longer supported by Microsoft for several years) on a 1.0 GHz processor and expecting anything from producing music.

And that's what I believe is holding this opportunity back.

Can you even start to imagine the interest that would be generated if BIAB could also operate as an Arranger System that could be used with almost any existing keyboard?

Nobody with a 1.0 GHz Windows 7 anything is purchasing the 2024 version of BIAB. Move on.

You're right, of course.

I'm wondering, what with lots of FAQs out there, where this set of system requirements came from? It would be worth sending a suggestion to PG Music to update it. In particular, I think the change this year that loads and regenerates RealTracks so much faster must be taking more computer processing power. Only if BIAB had remained MIDI-only would those specs have a fighting chance. "Turn off Fast Generation" and the like can send someone down an unproductive journey with an underpowered computer.

SSD's have sub-millisecond access ('seek') times, and can typically read in excess of half a gigabyte / second.

For BIAB to work in an Arranger environment, the system only has to read short pre-recorded 'musical phrases', and not generate an entire song.

Of course there are other factors, but processing power is extraordinary nowadays, and BIAB could have a minimum requirement if it is to be used as a Arranger capable system as well. Disable that ability unless the overall processing performance is adequate.

Using it as a Live Arranger you would only need a small LCD screen, I made a touch screen jukebox/karaoke using a POS terminal and just ran the program at startup, I think it even had a second display port for the karaoke screen.
http://www.freeboxjukebox.com/screenshots.html

Here's a 10" touch screen for less than $100:

Some arranger keyboards have a touch screen.



For the Biab Live Arranger they could have a skin for touch screens.
That what's good about e-touch jukebox you can create whatever skin you like:

I believe making an arranger out of plugin or BIAB is theoretically possible, but styles would have to tailored specifically for use with such arranger. Unlike a fairly straight forward MIDI arrangers, BIAB uses randomization algorithm making use of different takes over same chords. You DON'T want an arranger that would play something different from what you've last heard. If you make automatic STRICT rule of selection, it might not necessarily use the best take, but take worst. So I think to make something decent, each individual style would have to go through a very in depth section curation specifically designed for arranger.

Arranger is potentially a very promising direction, but for now I wish PGM would just fix what needs to be fixed and finish half baked items that need to be finished in BIAB & Plugin. Especially focusing on VST3 implementation that supposedly coming later this year and its MIDI routing to other tracks via simple method, not with some complex 10 step workaround.

For now, I am very glad they figured out use multicore processing for generating/regenerating tracks. That was a very pleasant surprise for 2024. Saves a lot of time.

I think anything will work better than the limitation of the repetitive pattern in the PRS STY MIDI (see below).
YES, let all the Delphi programming guys spend all their time fixing the Delphi Win then spend the next 6 months doing the same on the Mac, .... while Adar programs the crossplatform JUCE Plugin/Plugin Standalone/Live Arranger and releases it on the same day on a Win/Mac/Lin platform. So if the Delphi turns into a Ghost Town you still have the JUCE as a thriving metropolis.

Certainly there is no intention whatsoever to alter the priority of these other, more critical tasks and deliveries.

The original post made a few suggestions for the answer, including:

Real Time Arranging ??
Band in a Box for linux ??
A Working BBPlugin (EZBBvst) ??
Other ??

But I think Rustyspoon's posts, the second in this thread and the one just above, give answers I can agree with. Any of these other specific suggestions, the ones in the OP's post or different, deserve separate threads.

In my opinion, the Forum is quieter because of two possibilities: 1) BIAB can do what most users need to do, and/or 2) an increasing number of more advanced users who post frequently have grown weary waiting for fixes. Quite a few years ago now, I suggested there be 'no new features' in favor of a year in which existing features and limitations were fixed (but continue with new RealTracks so there is something new to sell). As the years go by, I continue to believe this is the approach that is needed, once. Then add new features to a solid core, although these need to be thought through very carefully or we get back into the same cycle.

Nothing I've written means that I do not love and appreciate BIAB. I use it every day.

At the moment how the programming works the Plugin has to wait for programming time to become available to always program the backend of the Plugin "BBW4" before anything can be done at all, so the Plugin programmer's hands are tied WAITING all the time so it gets held to a grinding halt: Current Fixes Needed for 6.0.13 (Reaper)
Users should be looking at solutions for this problem going into the future.
Is it a good thing to spend 6 months on Win them 6 months on Mac ????
Can you still see this method 10-20 years down the track and still be fine with it ????
If when something is programed, it is instantly done for Win/Mac and maybe Lin at the same time, would this give more time for things to be fixed and new features to be added easier ????
I'm just looking for BIG changes in the way things are done to get a larger user base rather than doing the same old thing with cosmetic tweaks.
It's just way too slow how it is now waiting year in year out, there's got to be a better way.
Think a bit bigger, not just keep doing the same old thing.

Interesting topic.

My opinion on the “ghost town” or “what will get more users back/generate more new users" is the right marketing and getting the word out. That’s one reason why I suggested a “PGMusic Grammy Award” playlist available as a YouTube featuring the best songs across every genre. Young folks simply may not be aware of all it can do. And if you're not a BiaB user, it's unlikely you're listening to the Showcase or BiaB Radio. But the idea went nowhere mainly because it would be a "popularity contest"; which is exactly the point. The most popular, well-produced songs get chosen for the purpose of attracting young, fresh talent.

PGMusic Grammys?

So I decided to ask my AI assistant for an opinion; which of course is trained on data scraped from the internet.

Q1. What is the most popular music arranging and accompaniment software tool among young musicians today?

A1. Ableton Live 10 Suite, Ableton Live 10 Suite, Avid Pro Tools.


Q2. Why is Band In A Box not on this list?

A2. Band-in-a-Box is indeed a notable music software tool, and I appreciate your mention of it! It’s a versatile program that excels in automatic accompaniment and music arrangement.
[Note that this is not answering my question.]

Q3. What are the drawbacks of Band In A Box?

A3.
1. User Interface (UI): The GUI of Band-in-a-Box might appear dated to some users. It resembles an MS-DOS program from the '80s. While this retro aesthetic has its adherents, others find it less visually appealing

2. Learning Curve: BIAB is feature-rich, which can be overwhelming for beginners. Although its core elements are straightforward, diving into its extensive functionality may take time. Users might need to explore the user manual or online resources to unlock its full potential.

3. Complexity: While BIAB is not a full-fledged digital audio workstation (DAW), it still offers a plethora of tools and features. Navigating through all these options can be daunting, especially for those new to music production.

4. Library Limitations: BIAB relies on its built-in libraries for RealTracks and RealDrums. While these are high-quality, users might eventually feel limited by the available styles and sounds. Customization options are somewhat constrained by the existing content.

5. Style Repetition: Some users find that BIAB’s generated accompaniments tend to follow certain cliché styles. While it’s excellent for quick arrangements, it might not always yield highly unique or innovative results.

6. Installation and File Size: Downloading and installing BIAB’s add-ons can be time-consuming. The UltraPAK, with its substantial library, can be quite large (around 140 GB). Users with slow internet connections might face challenges during installation.

Items #4 and #5 resonate with me which is why
a) I tend to include one or more tracks in my songs recorded on a physical keyboard to break-out of the standard styles available in BiaB and
b) I think a “grammy-level” YouTube or other format, showcasing the variety and depth of BiaB, might go far in attracting new users.

As for the bugs and occaisional instability, what useful program has zero-bugs?

That was fun. Items #2 and #3 are two heads of the same coin. Item #6 is dramatically understated if one considers the Audiophile version, at over 2 TB, instead of the UltraPak as stated. And I think BIAB is providing new ways to get around #4, so "somewhat" is less so..

The "PGMusic Granny Awards", when I first started with Biab/RB creating tracks for artist I made a few music videos that were using out of the box styles that ended up on the cable channel CMT. I tried to encourage other users to do the same and made a few how to tutorials, but I don't know if that ever went anywhere ? Are there videos now in the showcase forum as I don't really visit it ?
I just thought if there was a showcase with good quality music videos it would help promote Biab.

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=317864

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=318836

Steve,
That's an interesting Q/A list.

Q1 is not really relevant as good percentage of young people are into EDM, Hip Hop and alike genres, which BIAB is not. Seems BIAB users are into Folk, Country, Rock, Jazz, Blues, Pop, R&B and similar. I doubt AI will do a deep analysis of that. So if a hypothetical "young" person are into genres BIAB has to offer, he/she (*they) will have no better option than BIAB, unless they want to simply be a Suno button presser.

Q3 part #4 will definitely be solved by VST3 if done right, with user friendly MIDI in/out to other plugins that sit within BIAB. Usable "libraries" would include all sample phrased Kontakt instruments: Guitars, bases, orchestral strings and even ukulele. All Toontrack second generation items and endless algorithmic and programmable MIDI arpeggiators and sequencers. But given that a User is at least somewhat interested in genres/content BIAB has to offer to create fusion tunes.

Q3 part#6 Is also strange. Ultrapak with most/all addons is ~150GB. In terms of money, that's only like $12-$15 on fast HD. , and if you are ordering actual disk from PGM, which I think ships on SSD now, that should not be an issue at all.

-----

Some interesting topics are touched upon. Musiocity, I think "Ghost Town" might not be a "bad" thing. People could be just doing their stuff. Spring yard work for one.

I think they all must be doing their spring yard work still for a few years now.
You get something like EZ Drummer EZ Keys, everybody knows them, how many people out there making music in a DAW even know about Biab and the BBPlugin ?
The Plugin needs to be EZBBvst, without the steep learning curve of Biab and the million and one features, simplicity and ease of use. Isn't this what makes the Toontracks Plugins popular. There are no other apps running in the background, the Plugin does it all.
I can drag any midi into EZKeys and it will fit it to the chord progression, I can't do that with Biab.
I did make a Plugin to do all this but it was a pain in the asss trying to route it all in Biab without proper Plugin chaining.
Biab Snap MIDI To Chords
Biab MIDI Key Snap

Q4. What are the top 5 music genres of interest to people under 30? Please list them in descending order.

A4.
1. Hip-Hop/Rap
2. Pop
3. EDM
4. Rock
5. Indie/Alternative

Q5. What are the top 5 music genres of interest to people over 50? Please list them in descending order.

A5.
1. Blues
2. Jazz
3. Country (Traditional)
4. Singer/Songwriter
5. Hard Rock/Prog Rock/Metal


Q6. Are there any alternatives to BIAB?

A6.
1. Impro-Visor: An open-source music notation program designed to help jazz musicians compose and hear solos similar to improvised ones. It’s available for Windows, Mac, and Linux
2. ChordPulse: A handy backing band software suitable for music practice, inspiration, improvisation, and pure fun. It offers features like full accompaniment, drum machine with bass, metronome with chords, and more. ChordPulse is available for Windows
3. MMA (Musical MIDI Accompaniment): A free and open-source software that generates MIDI accompaniments from chord progressions. It’s particularly useful for practicing and experimenting with different styles
4. JJazzLab: A tool specifically designed for jazz musicians. It provides realistic accompaniments and allows customization of chord progressions, styles, and instruments
5. Rosegarden: Although primarily a music notation and composition software, Rosegarden can also be used for arranging and creating MIDI-based accompaniments

Well, Q6 proves my point.
There's nothing better than BIAB for traditional electric / acoustic genres for the Q5 item.

m.city
"how many people out there making music in a DAW even know about Biab and the BBPlugin"

Fewer than it deserves for sure. From Bass Thumpers post #808674 AI gave pretty reasonable explanation in Q3 answers 1, 2, 3. Especially 2+3 which can easily be viewed as one item. Smooth (bugless) workflow is everything.

Marketing has to do a bit with it too. No demo, not on popular sites like Pluginboutique, BigFish, etc.

If one yearly release would focus on just fixing bugs, improving workflow / limitation and bye bye to redundant menus and features that would go a very long way.

Just about every demo or tutorial of "making beats" seems to use loops or samples in a DAW, cut, sliced, quantised, compressed to death and so on. The complete antithesis of what BIAB is about.

But I think the days of that may be passing ... quite a lot of what's now played on the radio is much less techno/robotic and much more human and expressive. I think that's encouraging.

To reach the younger audience, perhaps what's needed is for one/some of the EDM producers to get into BIAB and make some demos/tutorials to which younger people can relate, rather like Henry Clark does for we of more advanced years. Perhaps showing how the BBPlugin can work alongside the loops/samples/slicing methods?

People on these fora have produced EDM demos, often apparently quite quickly :D, and seem to have convinced, e.g., swingbabymix that it works. SBMs posts now are mostly for ideas suggestions or "help, I can't find a style like this...". It's perhaps a pity that SBM doesn't have English.

The Answer 6 software ... they're none comparable to BIAB's performance quality, though they can still be useful. For me, an attraction is that of them, only one (ChordPulse) is not available foe Linux. I notice the AI didn't mention that MMA is a command-line program.

No one at the Reaper forum is missing doing spring yard work or whatever.
Most of these ideas are just the usual improvement ideas that get posted year in year out, fix bugs, add this feature, add this genre.....
I'm looking for BIG game changing ideas, doing things a different way, not the same old thing, something completely new, game changing....
AI won't help, you need DI (divine inspiration/intelligence)
You guys are talking about planning a trip interstate, I'm talking about going to Mars, what would Elon do if he bought PG ?

THINK BIG !

Well I don't know how big these are but a complete rewrite incorporating the following:
1-All time signatures
2-Modern customizable menus: eliminate redundancy.
3-All genres of music including EDM, R&B, trance, ambient, soul, hip hop, house, acid jazz, etc.
4-A more intuitive workflow.
5-Drop DXis and only use VSTis
All of the above and probably more is a stable VSTi.

That sounds good !

Look at this post, how many users replied and were keen ?
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=275039&styleid=12

Is Band in a Box Too Old for Young People?

I would like an extension to the melodist that would allow me to generate a text-related melody. If the melody track is activated, for example:
1. Mark the first 4 bars;
2. Then right click with the mouse;
3. Floating new window opens;
4. Enter the text you have in mind;
5. Automatic hyphenation and distribution of the syllables corresponding to the number among the marked bars (only the fundamental note of the key, but the singing rhythm is appropriate for the selected style of music)
6. Button to vary rhythmic random variation (melody is still just Grunton of the selected key);
7. If no chord progression has been entered at point 1: press the button to create a random chord progression.
8. Both should be displayed in an area of ​​the same window so that they can be edited.
9. If BiaB should create the melody with the selected syllable rhythm, a third button for suggestions that might fit.
10. The completion of this process then incorporates the melody and lyrics into the song.

If text already exists, it is desirable that it also appears in the same window and can be further edited.
It's also great if the colors of the notes are colored according to their position corresponding to the chord.

I had already suggested this wish, but unfortunately it was not implemented. Absolutely necessary, especially with tools like SynthV! VST3, which is still missing, and also MarioD's list of changes would be necessary so that I can work with such tools in a contemporary manner!

I think PG themselves have no particular interest in raising the program to current standards.
The migration of BiaB to a more modern development environment
requires manpower which also costs money. Economic considerations will probably speak against this.

As great as this program is, by failing to do so, PG is wasting a lot of the potential of their product.
This company policy hardly appeals to young people!
It's unfortunate, but that's how it is.

Operating System Compatibility & Mobile devices
JUCE is a cross platform framework allowing a single codebase to compile to native applications and plug-ins with the same user experience on Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS and Android, across both desktop and mobile. Native applications can be launched in the iOS and Android device simulators to simplify testing and debugging, and can be packaged up for distribution within the mobile app stores.

Adding an escape function to prevent an endless loop:

LOL I love it !

It's the same in the Biab wishlist, if you go back in time, there are way more on a daily basis back then.
You see good suggestions that are still missed and not picked up:

This is the first time I've been here for a while and for me the reason is that BIAB is working fine and does what I want, which is to audition songs in different styles. It's an extremely useful tool in that regard. I also use it to generate the basic framework for many of my recordings, although I generally replace most of the tracks with my own performances later. It's a great time saver.

I suppose the lack of posts in the forum probably does indicate that there aren't many new users, as new users would be bound to have lots of questions.

The major change I would suggest is the PG Music should consider making the Audiophile version a bit cheaper - they'd probably sell a lot more if that version was a bit cheaper. As it is it's a huge jump from the price of the regular version to the price of the Audiophile version.

While PG are still working on the Mac version for the last 5 months.........